[Biopython] suggestion: moving to the discussion list to Google groups

Thu Dec 17 04:35:56 EST 2009

Hi,

On 16/12/2009 16:49, "Istvan Albert" <iua1 at psu.edu> wrote:

> [the mailing list] feels like a throwback to the 90s. [...]
> Of course  python has comp.lang.python and it is a nice and
> thriving group.

<stir>

comp.lang.python is a Usenet group, and Usenet is a throwback to the 70s. ;)

</stir>

> I can't even imagine what it would look like to have a popular
> newsgroup being delivered to my mailbox.

Mailing lists are far more convenient - for me - than having to navigate to
a website especially to check new messages on a particular subject.  Mailing
lists bring new posts and issues to my attention via a single always-on
interface in a timely manner.  The current mailing list also has the
advantage of grabbing the attention, specifically, of many people who might
be able to do something about a query.

As it happens, when I used to still read Usenet groups, I would do so from
my mail client, with exactly the same threaded interface as I used for
mailing lists and all other email.

Biopython is never likely to be more than a niche interest, so I wouldn't
expect it to ever reach the traffic of - say - alt.binaries.  To be honest,
the traffic doesn't even seem to approach that of numpy-discussion.  And
while we're talking about numpy-discussion, it illustrates one of Hilmar's
and Chris' points:

On 16/12/2009 16:56, "Hilmar Lapp" <hlapp at drycafe.net> wrote:

> what is your solution to Google all of a sudden deciding to take
> Google Groups down, or to make it a paid subscription service, or if
> Google goes out of business?

On 16/12/2009 19:07, "Chris Fields" <cjfields at illinois.edu> wrote:

> Not that I think Google is in any danger of going under, or that Google Groups
> will cease to exist, but they have discontinued services in the past (notebook
> was one, and I recall others going away).

http://groups.google.com/group/numpy-discussion/unlock?_done=/group/numpy-di
scussion/

That mailing list was taken down from Google Groups for 'violating terms of
service' - why, I don't know: it's a mailing list for a specialist Python
library.  It does illustrate though, how control can be (irrevocably) lost
over communication via Google Groups.  Notably, the mailing list itself
persists without interruption.

On 16/12/2009 17:36, "Istvan Albert" <iua1 at psu.edu> wrote:

> One thing is seems clear to me and I do not think that you are aware
> of it. This mailman setup is a throttle - it imposes a negative
> feedback on the amount of messages that it can handle.
> 
> This system of messages cannot grow over a certain limit. Just imagine
> regularly getting a dozen new emails a day plus their followups, yet
> you are just a casual user.
> 
> This would be unbearable for many people whose inboxes are already
> overflowing.

This issue - that some people don't like to receive lots of messages at once
- is already solved in mailman.  There is a 'daily digest' option on the
mailing list that collates the messages for a day, and sends them out as a
single email for you.

As a mailing list, mailman is deliberately designed to be relatively low
volume in terms of content, but to reach many readers directly; the idea is
to send relatively few messages to many people - but to push those messages
through to the reader.

Forums, wikis and website-based discussion lists require a deliberate effort
on the part of the reader either to find what they're interested in, or to
visit the site regularly.  Otherwise they just end up signing up to receive
updates by email, much like mailman.

On 16/12/2009 17:40, "Hilmar Lapp" <hlapp at drycafe.net> wrote:

> That all being said, if what's at issue here is to have a Google Group
> interface to the Biopython mailing list, then that's actually easy to
> achieve.

FWIW, I think that archiving the mailing list on Google Groups is not a bad
idea - so long as the current registration scheme continues to prevent the
inevitable waves of spam from Google Groups users.

The Biopython mailing lists appear already to have been archived - with
various degrees of usable interface, and likely intermittent coverage, too -
at sites such as:

http://www.mailinglistarchive.com/biopython@biopython.org/index.html

and

http://osdir.com/ml/search.html?cx=008059810939676512379%3Af5owd_2hq3u&cof=F
ORID%3A10&q=%5Bbiopython%5D&sa=Search

amongst others.

On 16/12/2009 18:02, "Istvan Albert" <iua1 at psu.edu> wrote:

> All of you who responded - frankly I think you are too close to this
> issue to be able judge it correctly. [...] Get
> someone who is 20 and has never heard of sending emails to an address
> then see what they say about it...

<stir>

If they've never heard of emailing an address, and/or can't use a mail
client to filter their email, I'm not sure the immediate problem is
necessarily with the mailing list... ;)

</stir>

I don't think that anyone here wants to restrict access to Biopython, or to
prevent discussion, even inadvertently.  That we've had 28 posts on this
issue in about 12 hours suggests that the list can handle issues of some
interest.  Sure, it would be nice to have a convenient, web-accessible and
searchable archive with a pretty and robust interface (and Google Groups
could give us that).  But I'm not convinced that the current mailing list is
a particular barrier to participation.

+1 for mirroring/archiving on Google Groups:
http://groups.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=46387

L.

-- 
Dr Leighton Pritchard MRSC
D131, Plant Pathology Programme, SCRI
Errol Road, Invergowrie, Perth and Kinross, Scotland, DD2 5DA
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